Grammar programs -- any others?

[Kelly in GA]

I am trying to decide on my 9yo dd's grammar text for next year. She will be in 5th grade (she turns 10 in Sept.). She is familiar with the parts of speech but that is about all (her punctuation and other usage is fine). She has had no experience with diagramming. I am Catholic and have heard that some Catholics don't use Abeka because of an anti-Catholic bias. Do you notice any such bias in the Abeka Language books? Also, does Rod & Staff have such a bias? Are there any other programs you would recommend for grammar? I checked out the Analytical Grammar, but I don't know anyone else who has used it (personally or on the WTM boards)! Have you seen Seton's Language books? What about Voyages in English?

Thanks for any advice.

Kelly in GA

P.S. - We will be starting our first CW lesson this week!

[Lene Mahler Jaqua]

Dear Kelly,

I understand your reluctance to use a curriculum which does not support your Church.

My background is mixed Protestant, I was raised Lutheran, we go to an Evangelical church, which is my husband's background, but I have strong sympathies towards my Anglican and Catholic and Orthodox friends, especially as I have met them in classical education, just so you know where I am coming from.... I did use Abeka grammar for a while with my own kids . I do not remember the text having any anti-Catholic bias in it. - I switched mostly because there was quite a huge part of those volumes which was repetition that my kids didn't need, and another large part of those books, the composition part, we simply do not use.

Really, when it comes to a grammar text, like you, I want to make sure not to purchase a text from a publisher that bashes my church, neither in the text itself, nor elsewhere. Secondly I would mostly worry that the text covers the etymology and the syntax appropriate for the level my child is at... and the over-all content is appropriate to what I want to teach.

Tracy was the one who started with Harvey and has converted me to do the same. I went first with Shurley Grammar (good for little ones, but very rote, the sentences are very uninspiring), ,then to ABeka, which uses better literature, has the diagramming, and is over all not a bad workbook text, but where my kids were stuck, I didn't find enough review, and where they weren't stuck I felt there was too much (LOL). Now I am sold on both levels of Harvey for its depth, its syntax, which is hard to find in other programs, and for its use of excellent literature as example sentences.

Harvey has the advantage that it comes with a solution manual, which the kids or a grammar-nervous mom can check to make sure it is done right. ABeka has more of the component of "hand this page to your child to do on his or her own", which can also be an advantage. We are all busy and it is worth having a few items where the child can work independently. - With Harvey, I go over the lesson with 2 or 3 kids on a white board, and then send them off to work on their own, each at their level. I like having them together for the "lecture", if you will.

A dear friend of both Tracy and me, one with an impressive classical pedigree and more children than either one of us, uses Jensen Grammar, which is also thorough, and certainly material that the child can work on his own. It doesn't use sentences from great literature, but otherwise it seems to cover the material which needs to be covered in grammar, AND the student works on his own.

You will probably have to supplement with diagramming for Jensen, and I also do so with Harvey. I use the Whole Book of Diagrams, which is written by a Catholic lady. We diagram whatever we are doing in Harvey and in CW and use Whole Book of Diagrams as a reference text to make sure we did it right.

As for Seton, VIE, I am sorry, I cannot tell you anything. I have heard of those a whole lot on my private email list, but I have never seen, nor used either.

Lene

[Kathie]

I understand that you will be using Harvey's for grammar lessons in the second level of CW. However you also state that any "good" grammar program should be fine. Could you give some guidance on the scope and sequence for your grammar lessons? Basically I am currently using R&S, which I know is "good", but it is broken into yearly textbooks while Harvey's is all one book. So of course I worry about you teaching a topic that my grammar book hasn't gotten to yet (since it would be in another book it would be hard to jump to).

Thanks,

Kathie

[Lene Mahler Jaqua]

I won't be very specific, if you will pardon me, since we are still outlining and writing the next book.

The lessons for analysis and imitation In Classical Writing - Homer (our next book) will coordinate with Harvey's Elementary Grammar, as much as we can.


Harvey's begins with the basic sentence, , basic sentence making, introductory parts of speech, then the noun, the verb, the adjective, the article, the participle, the pronoun, the adverb, the preposition, the phrase, the conjunction, and the interjection. That's all in Harvey's part I.

We are going to follow that sequence pretty closely and draw from the "theory" of Harvey. Havrey is so cheap, less than $10 most moms can afford to get it.

The reason an other good elementary grammar will do fine is this:

Rod and Staff, Jensen, Abeka, are all going to be covering those subjects too, of course they are.

If you want to follow CW's sample schedules, you can either get Harvey, or simply do prepositions from yoiur own grammar when our sample schedule does prepositions OR you can alter our sample schedule slightly and do insert the next topic from your grammar text for the analysis and imitation, and note which skill level that concept is covere in, in CW, it would only alter things a very little.. -- Even so, most grammars start with nouns, then verbs and move on, so even the sequences are likely to be similar. If I remember my years in Abeka right, they always do a lot of punctuation first, then nouns, then verbs.

Most of the yearly grammar texxts, again if I remember correctly, do cover the same topics year after year, adding a little at a time to the concept of nouns... one year mostly nouns as subjects, and doing singular and plural, the next adding nouns as objects, contractions, then noun phrases etc.

There is not an exactly right order in which grammatical concepts MUST be followed. At least not on the introductory level. It's not like math where you must do addition before mutliplication will make a whole lot of sense.

I am glad you are bringing this up. I am going t o make a note to myself and to Tracy to write a short section on..... IF you're using a different grammar book.... That might be the ticket here. We are probably talking about grammars at about 4th grade level and up to equal Harvey's Elementary. I would think that a 2nd or 3rd grade grammar would not be detailed enough.

Thanks again for bringing it up, it really helps us plan to do a more flexible job.

Lene

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[Jennifer in IL]

My daughter is in first grade this year. She can read Amelia Bedelia and chapter books so she is ready for CW-Aesop. i use the Riggs Institute material for spelling. It is a cadilac version of the Writing Road to Reading. I have also dabbled with Spelling Workout. I am currently using First Language Lessons for grammar and narration. That book will take us through nouns and verbs.

Do I use A Beka or Rod and Staff for grammar first , or can I start with Harvey's Grammar? Is A Beka or Rod and Staff more thorough?

Also, I was happy to see the Riggs Institute mentioned in the CW question and anwer list. How well do you know that program? I don't know whether or not to continue with it for second grade. It does have intensive spelling which I like, but the manual is hard to use. I guess I wouldn't need to use another grammar text if I use Riggs, or I could just use it for spelling. I would be willing to change if I could find another spelling program I like.

I am finding all these wonderful resources. I just need to figure out what to do :-) I would really appreciate any and all suggestions. I am not worried about cost. I just want the best materials. (I hipe my husband doesn't read that last sentence.) :-)

Jennifer in IL

[Tracy Gustilo]

Hi Jennifer,

It sounds like you already have lots of great resources to use for spelling and intro grammar. What you have should be more than enough to get started with CW-Aesop. I would continue whichever ones you find to be the most useful. We do definitely recommend an outside spelling program to go along with CW-Aesop (and beyond, as necessary). An outside grammar program at this level is not necessary. We include a bit of basic introductory grammar right within CW-Aesop itself. But you can certainly continue to use other programs for reinforcement or as a head start on more grammar theory. You can easily spend a year with Aesop at your daughter's age.

From there you would move into CW-Homer when your daughter is ready. At that time you would need to make a decision about a more intensive grammar program. I would definitely recommend buying Harvey's Elementary to have on hand, whether you decide to teach directly from it or not. It will be a very useful reference and learning tool for you. Whether you go to another, graded grammar program for use with your daughter is up to you. It depends a lot on your teaching style and your daughter's learning style. If you lean towards interactive and hands-on teaching, or if your daughter does not do as well with textbooks/workbooks, you might try teaching from Harvey's directly. If you like to give assignments and have her work more or less on her own, then you will want to give one of the graded series a try. In any case, you don't need to make that decision right away.

I hope that helps!

Tracy