Harvey's Grammar article and purchasing info links

[Kelly in GA]

Hi, everyone!

I was over at the Classical Co-op site and saw this article about Harvey's Grammar (written by Martha Turner). I thought I would put a link to it so that anyone interested in purchasing Harvey's could get some info on it.

www.classicalco-op.com/discussion/article.php?story=20030410164056774

Also, in another thread I noted that you can buy a Harvey's kit (both the elementary and the revised and the keys) for $27.50 including shipping. I called Mott Media recently and got the kit. When I called, they said that the home schoolers now purchase through www.homeschoolingbooks.com (and the home schooling prices are correct at this site). Here is the link to the Harvey's kit:

www.homeschoolingbooks.com/pages/itemdetail.asp?ItemID=2486


Blessings,

Kelly in GA (whose husband brought the older ones to a movie today and whose baby is napping -- wow, free time!)

[Martha]

Hi Kelly,

Thank you so much for the updated information on Mott Media, I'll make sure to add your ordering information at the co-op! The article is only a brief overview, so corrections, additions, suggestions, and questions are welcome.

Thanks again,
Martha

[Tammy]

I don't think you can purchase this kit cheaper anywhere else! I just ordered mine......


Tammy

[Lene Mahler Jaqua]

Martha is right, (and Martha, I loved your article at the Co-op, you are SO on the ball with this) don't give up on Harvey's.

Those of you who have bought it and are now staring at it glassy eyed. Yes, it is hard, it is concise, it is technical and detailed, but it is worth it.

As Martha said, there are 134 lessons. Ten plus one of those are compositions and letter writing, which we do not cover. That leaves us with 124 lessons for two school years, about 62 lessons per school year, some combined, others not.

I cover one or two lessons with my kids per week, depending on the difficulty of the lesson and the amount of work involved. Right now we are in 83. - 98., the section on verbs.

Like Martha said, we keep a grammar copybook where my 9 yo copies all her definitions of voice, mode, tense, number, and person.

For a normal lesson, we read the section aloud together. If there are any examples, amongst all the definitions, we write those on the board and discuss them. She does the exercises in writing in a composition bound book, and she also answers the theory section marked "questions" after each section, in writing, in that book. She may look at the original definitions to get those right. What we like most about working with Harvey, is taking the theory and applying it to the weekly model, in our case the 12 Labors of Hercules right now. It is fun to see "verbs in action" (pardon the pun) in a real connected story. It affirms the usefulness of grammar and gives her an insight into why the author wrote it as he did. -- By applying it, I mean, that if we were working with adjectives that week, she takes several different colored highlighters and marks each type of adjective in the model with a defined color, so we can see which type of adjectives are most abundant. As I mentioned yesterday elsewhere on the board, for the modes of verbs, she marked each verb in each sentence according to mode and got a good feel for the fact that much of writing, most of what she writes is in the indicative. It was hard for her to distinguish potential and subjunctive, BTW< so we wont' do a new lesson next week, we will stay with the modes and work on a new model to solidify those skills. - I could go on, but you get the picture of how to apply Harvey theory to a model.

Finfally I want to mention that in our school each grammar session begins with review of the previous lesson's work in Harvey. This way, even though we are working on verbs, we still go back and review all the types of adjectives: descriptive, numeral, ordinate, cardinal, etc. which she learned in the previous session.

For those who still don't want to touch Havey, we WILL carefully and logically coordinate CW Homer with Harvey for the A and I sessions so that anyone should be able to teach Harvey and CW HOmer at the same time, should they want to. For those who are doing R and S or some other grammar, each skill level will be designated with topic and sub topic, so you should be able to coordinate another grammar almost equally well if you wish to do so.

Lene

[Kelly in GA]

Thank you, everyone! This board has been very inspirational -- I am feeling better about Harvey's. I purchased the full set and looked through it while I was reading Martha's article and Lene's post about using it. I think I might give it a try!

I like the idea of using the lessons in Harvey's and then applying them to the weekly model. This is really how I want to homeschool; I want to integrate as many subjects as possible.

Here are some questions for the Harvey's users here. I will be using this for a 5th grader (next year) so my questions are regarding the Harvey's Elementary text.

1) Do you teach all of the "outdated" terms (such as "copula")? I guess I need to know if they will be useful for future knowledge for my dc.

2) Do you modify the definitions so that your child understands them? (e.g. p. 26 "A participle is a word dervied from a verb, partaking of the properties of a verb...") I am not the kind of person who likes things dumbed down (we do read the unabridged classics around here), but I can see the look on my dd face if I read that definition to her!!

3) What do you use for teaching diagraming? I have Mary Daly's Elementary worktext that we have been working through - is this okay? (also, assume the mom/teacher here does not remember as much grammar as she had hoped!)

4) What grade do you start teaching Harvey's? What do you use before Harvey's?

5) If you teach Harvey's Elementary in 2 yrs and start in 4th grade, do you then go into Harvey's Revised in 6th grade?

6) Will CW- Homer use Harvey's Elementary or Harvey's Revised?

7) Do you use any other grammar resources (other than a handbook like R&S)? Do you use any other grammar texts along with Harvey's? (I am trying to decide if I should sell the 4th gr and 5th gr R&S texts or keep them?!)

Thank you in advance for any advice!

Blessings,

Kelly in GA

[Martha]

Hi Kelly,
I'm in a rush this morning to get to the library early, so I'll just throw out a couple of things for you to think over. First, the term "copula" is still used in studying formal logic. Furthermore, the way that Harvery's treats the copula as a separate element, rather than a part of the predicate will also be helpful in logic. The students in ds' logic class this past year who had studied Harvey's had a easier time learning to recognize and work with putting sentences into logical form. Second, older terminology is more difficult to master, but in the long run it is more precise, and thererfore more useful.

I don't think that Harvey's elementary goes further than naming complements, but here is an example that I've found from my own experience. Subject complements can be either nouns, pronouns, or adjectives. They are often called predicate adjectives, or predicate nouns and pronouns. This is the way I was taught, and it is correct as far as it goes. The more precise term for a noun or pronoun which functions as a complement is predicate nominative. Knowing this is important in English when deciding whether to use the nominative (I, she, we) or the objective case (me, her, us) pronoun. In Latin, which has 5 (or 6 depending on how you classify them) possible case endings, it is helpful to remember that nouns and pronouns which function as predicate nominatives take the nominative case ending. Furthermore, just to compound the confusion: since the study of inflected language is no longer the norm, we now call the nominative case the subjective case, because most subjective case nouns and pronouns are subjects, and that is easier to say! It's simpler, and thought by modern educational experts to be descriptive enough for the simplified grammar that is taught today. If you study Latin, though, it will still be called "nominative".

I do sometimes simplify definitions, but I am careful to say that I am doing so, and that we will go into more detail later. Then I always make a note to go back later and try again. Eventually the glassy eyes will give way to understanding, even for participles! I'm not the best source of information on timing, because we were in ps for 4 years. Those of you who are able to hs from the beginning will be on a far different schedule. Always remember that grammar is more of an art than a science, so having a variety of references wil be helpful.

Martha

[Kelly in GA]

Thanks, Martha and Lene, for your input. For those who are reading these posts, Lene's response to my grammar questions is in under the "Phonics, Spelling, and the WRTR" topic (another post on the board).

Also, I am glad to know that "copula" is a useful term for logic. I guess I need to get cracking on my logic studies (in addition to the grammar studies I plan to do this summer)!

Blessings,

Kelly in GA

[Michelle in DE]

Kelly, I'll be digging in right there with you this summer on Harvey's and Traditional Logic. Going to see RRC next week to pick up my logic books then.

I can see it's not going to be easy to stay ahead of my 4th grader. LOL! I didn't have logic until college. And, I never learned the proper terminology for grammar except for subjects, predicates, gerunds, participles and the 8 parts of speech and that's about it.

My dd and I are also starting Latina Christiana together this summer. Whew! Sounds intimidating with a toddler to deal with. I'm hoping he naps at least once a day.

I'm counting on help and support from this board!

Michelle

[Kelly in GA]

Michelle,

It sounds like we are using a lot of the same curricula -- CW, Latina Christiana, Seton, Singapore, etc. (if that was you posting on the WTM board). Is your dd in 4th grade now (or will she be next year)? My dd is 4th grade now but will just be turning 10 in September.

How long have you been using CW? What else do you use for language arts (do you combine CW with anything?)? What were you using before CW?

How are you going to use Latina Christiana? I am using Laura Berquist's syllabus for it (4th grade and up) so we are learning the vocabulary this year and will get into the "grammar" of it next year. This will work out well for my dd (who is 4th grade now)

Re: Harvey's and Traditional Logic -- I am sure you will see me posting questions on this board this summer. Let me know when you start and maybe we can e-mail periodically to cheer each other on!

I have the Harvey's set and will probably start that first. I plan on buying the Traditional Logic in a couple of months. I think I want to get this grammar thing down first.

Have a blessed Easter weekend!

Kelly in GA...who is anxiously awaiting CW - Poetry and CW- Homer!!

[Michelle in DE]

Hi Kelly,
Yes, I frequent the WTM board. I also use Laura Berquist's book. I kind of combine the two approaches. I like LB's approach to the early grades because it seems gentler, but the grammar and science seem weak to me in general. That is just my humble opinion and my opinions are subject to change. Otherwise, I have had success with all the other resources LB suggests except that I have been using SWO for spelling and Singapore in addition to A Beka for math. I will probably make the switch over to WISE Guide for spelling in the fall and supplement with a vocabulary program like Wordly Wise. My dd is a natural speller and it probably doesn't matter what program I use, she'll be fine. I'm just trying to use our time and $ efficiently. She's almost finished SWO D now and I hate the thought of working through 4 more books with her unless they are mostly vocabulary building in the next level. I'll know more about what I'm doing in the fall after I come back from another hs conference next week. RRC will be there and I'll have a chance to look at some things more closely.

My dd is in 3rd grade according to the state of Delaware. She is 9 YO and her birthday is Christmas Eve. I did not do any grammar with her during 1st and most of 2nd grade. Near the end of her 2nd grade year, we began A Beka's Language 3 per SWB's advice. We completed that this past February and I was not excited about it enough to want to use A Beka for grammar again. It seemed that so many pages were devoted to punctuation and after working through all those exercises dd would still forget to put in capital letters, commas, and periods. Real writing, either through dictation or her own compositions, is the only thing that really seems to make a difference with her. I was also disappointed that A Beka 3 didn't even cover all 8 parts of speech.

Then I purchased FLL for my ds who just turned 6 this week. I think it is more useful than A Beka's 3rd grade program and it is supposedly for 1st and 2nd grade. I also like that the program is done orally. Fits in with my gentle approach to K-3rd grade.

Since I am recently a Catholic convert (Easter 2002), I am trying to avoid material that is in conflict with my religion. I don't feel that I have a good enough grasp myself to watch for "red flags." So, I often rely on other Catholics to help me steer clear of problematic curricula. I have heard great things about R&S but didn't want to muddy the waters with possibly running across Mennonite doctrine. (I hope I am not offending any Mennonites by saying that; it is not my intention to offend.) I had the opportunity to leaf through the old Catholic versions of VIE at hs conferences but I was not that impressed. At least up to 5th grade, unless I missed something, it seemed to only cover parts of speech and some verb usage. I didn't even look at the writing assignments. I was in a real quandry about what to do for language arts. I was seriously contemplating LLATL but just didn't feel that it was meaty enough when I saw LisaNY's review of CW on the WTM board. I came over here to the FAQ and started reading. Dd is now on her 6th composition and I am very pleased with her progress. She enjoys it most of the time and I am surprised at how much she has written in her composition book. She has written more in the past 6 weeks than all of her work combined for the last 2 years. Prior to CW she did a couple of creative writing assigments from SWO and some thank you letters to friends and relatives. We should have been doing more copywork and dictation but I just couldn't seem to fit it into the day. After math, spelling and grammar, it seemed that it was time to rush off for ds's gymnastics class, a science field trip, or our co-op art/music class, or, I was just plain too tired to do anything else but let the kids go play.

One of the things I love most about CW is the integrated schedule. We are using our precious time more effieciently and the skills are really sinking in. I don't think I will need any more grammar workbooks because I can move much faster than a workbook would allow using this method. At the beginning of the A&I section, I review concepts we learned in the previous weeks, such as prepositional phrases, dependent and independent clauses. If she's "getting it" I move ahead with something new. If she's staring blankly, I stay with the concept awhile longer. I love that I can customize. Right now we are working on recognizing the 8 parts of speech and understanding the comma rules. My 6 YO loves doing this along with us. I don't push him at this age, but he is actually asking to do it.

So far, I have only used Harvey's as a reference and haven't worked through the exercises myself. But, I can see that eventually I'm going to have to bite the bullet and just do it. I think it will be difficult to get through Homer without understanding it myself. What keeps me motivated is knowing that Homer is due out soon. I am also anxiously awaiting.

I do have other grammar "resources" and I will probably continue to add to this collection. I will mention here that I just bought Mary Daly's First Whole Book of Diagrams and looked through it briefly. It looks wonderful. I didn't diagram in high school, we underlined sujects and verbs, drew circles around modifiers and drew arrows to the words they modified. So diagramming is new to me. This diagramming book makes it look so easy that I think I'll take my dd through it next year during our A&I time. I think she'll enjoy it if we work through the lessons together on a wipe-off board. The lessons are scripted and thus very easy on the teacher. Other things on my shelf in addition to Harvey's are the Writing Handbook (I posted about this previously on another thread), Roget's Thesaurus, and an American Heritage Student Dictionary (has a handy little grammar guide in the back. Bonus!). I will probably also get a copy of Strunk and White.

Other than those resources, things that I am considering for future use are Simply Grammar (because I like Karen Adreola's books and Charlott Mason), Winston Grammar (just because several people at WTM board gave it good reviews), and Stewart English (because SWB highly recommends it in WTM and it is also Charlotte Mason-like). Bear in mind, I haven't even seen any of these yet. They are just in my file of things to check into. If any of you have any experience with any of them, I'd be interested to hear about it.

In regard to Latina Christiana, my copy just came in the mail a couple of weeks ago. I haven't even opened the box yet. This will be a summer project. I first saw it at a conference in Pennsylvania where I had a chance to look at all the beginning Latin programs available to HSers. I met the author of the program and was most impressed by the fact that it looks much easier to use. I have had no Latin myself and so will be learning along with DD. Up until now, my 9 YO and 6 YO have been playing Rummy Roots. They love it but that has been the extent of our Latin work.

As I read through my post here I realize that DD has also really been a great sport about being my guinea pig. I hope I have answered all of your questions. I'm sorry if I'm rambling but I'm seriously sleep-deprived lately and I'm off to try to remedy that right now. (Hmm. We need a little sleepy face icon up there.)

I'm trying to figure out a way we can swap email addy's without all the spammers getting hold of my info.

Good night!

Michelle in DE
who had a very nice Easter weekend.

[Kelly in GA]

Michelle,

I am going to put my e-mail address in here and hope that spammers don't frequent this board!!

Here is it -- please send me an e-mail when you can.

Kelly in GA

[e-mail]