transitive verbs, predicates

[Kendall]

I'm working through Harvey's and trying to apply it to our models and the sentences in Rod and Staff. I have a few questions.


*Question 1:

I thought I had transitive and intransitive verbs figured out and then I read something in the answer key to Harvey’s Elementary Grammar that threw me off again. Is this verb transitive?

He whistled loudly.

The answer key said, in the paragraph at the end of the answers for page 16-17,
“The object of a transitive verb is sometimes not expressed, or the verb may have no object. It is said to be transitive if it may take an object.”

That leads me to believe that whistled would be a transitive verb because although not stated it could take an object.

He whistled a tune loudly.

*Question 2 The rain lasted forty days. Is days the object or is this a poorly worded sentence that should have said: The rain lasted for forty days, thus making days the object of the preposition and not the object of lasted. Is lasted a transitive verb?

*Question 3 Is the predicate in logical and Harvey’s terms just the non copulative verb or in sentences with a copula, the predicate adjective or predicate noun? In Rod and Staff I thought it was everything else after taking the subject and its modifiers out. I know it is “that which is affirmed about the subject”, but does this include adverbs and adverbial phrases?

Thanks,
Kendall

[Tracy Gustilo]

GREAT questions, Kendall. I see you are wrestling with this stuff, which IMO is the only way to learn! ;D
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*Question 1:
Is this verb transitive?

He whistled loudly.

“The object of a transitive verb is sometimes not expressed, or the verb may have no object. It is said to be transitive if it may take an object.”

That leads me to believe that whistled would be a transitive verb because although not stated it could take an object.

He whistled a tune loudly.

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Tracy's attempted answer:

I would make it transitive if there is an object (=direct object) expressed and intransitive if there is not an object expressed. That makes your life easier and the definition of "transitive" clean.

Comments:

1) I tried to come up with a reason why Harvey's waffles on this and couldn't come up with a good one. Sometimes the same word takes an object, and sometimes it doesn't. Usually the dictionary will list two different entries in that case.

dictionary.reference.com/search?q=whistle

The meanings can be very similar or different.

Hint: when in doubt, check your dictionary to see what your options are.

2) There are cases where we engage in "elliptical" speech, which is language that intentionally or by idiom leaves "grammatically necessary" things out (unexpressed). I don't think this is one of those cases.

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*Question 2 The rain lasted forty days. Is days the object or is this a poorly worded sentence that should have said: The rain lasted for forty days, thus making days the object of the preposition and not the object of lasted. Is lasted a transitive verb?
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Tracy:

Intransitive. "Forty days" is what is known as an adverbial noun -- a noun acting as an adverb. It answers "when" or "how" (how long), which are adverbial questions. (See Harvey's Elementary, sect. 37 on "adverbial elements".)

Sentences may be rewritten to use different grammatical constructions (in this case, changing an adverbial noun to a prepositional phrase). This is an important skill to learn for flexibility in writing and rhetorical "copia" (having lots of stylistically different ways of saying the same thing).

Rewriting is sometimes necessary to discover elliptical elements (things left out of a normal grammatical construction). Over time, elliptical constructions can become normalized, which IMO is where we get things like indirect objects. (I don't think Harvey's mentions indirect objects, or if it does, I would be willing to bet this is an addition by the modern editor. This is why Harvey's calls direct objects simply "objects". Indirect objects hadn't been invented yet. )

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*Question 3 Is the predicate in logical and Harvey’s terms just the non copulative verb or in sentences with a copula, the predicate adjective or predicate noun?
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Tracy:
In Harvey's, yes, the simple predicate is just that. (Objects are understood to be modifiers in Harvey's.) The complete predicate would include the modifiers.

In traditional logic, one has to translate an ordinary English sentence into what is called "standard logical form". This form always uses a copula, so non-copulative verbs have to be "translated". For example:

He walks.

becomes

He IS a person who is walking.

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In Rod and Staff I thought it was everything else after taking the subject and its modifiers out. I know it is “that which is affirmed about the subject”, but does this include adverbs and adverbial phrases?
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Tracy:
Rod & Staff follows the modern convention, which takes everything after the subject to be the predicate. The simple predicate excludes modifiers; the complete predicate includes modifiers.

I would tend not to make objects and complements ("subject complements" = predicate nominatives or adjectives) modifiers; therefore, I would include them in the simple predicate.

The terminology is slippery; but no matter what you call it, you always have four basic things to look for on the predicate side:

I. verb - three possibilities

1 - linking with subj. compl. (=pred. nom or adj)

2 - transitive with DO
(some of these may also have IO or obj. compl.)

3 - intransitive, shows being, action or state w/o DO
(includes forms of to be which show existence/being and don't "link", i.e. no subj. compl.)

II. objects & complements of various sorts
(to go along with the verb)

III. modifiers of various sorts

IV. compounding of various sorts

[Tracy Gustilo]

BTW, I should have noted. The "answer key" to Harvey's was not written by Harvey. While useful, I would not take it as being 100% authoritative.

[Kendall]

Tracy,

Thank you so much for your help and encouragement.

I'll remember that about the answer key. I didn't realize it was not original.

I much prefer the "clean" definition for transitive and my children will too.

I will relax about the definition for predicate.

I'm taking Harveys to the lake where my in-laws live and am looking forward to sitting on the deck studying while my youngest naps and everyone else is on the boat. Hopefully I won't get too frustrated and throw the grammar book in:). They can feel sorry for me if they want to, but solitude for self-education is rare when you are the mom of 5!!

Thanks again!

Kendall

P.S. Adverbial nouns were new to me. So much to learn.