Questions about the use of present perfect

[Susanne in AZ]

We are going through the tenses right now and I find Harvey's rather limited on the use of present perfect. I studied English as a foreign language in Germany and was wondering, if these rules for the use of the present tense are correct:

Use the present tense when:
- Something started in the past, but is still continuing during the present e.g. I have been living here for 6 years (I don't plan on moving away for awhile).
- Something happened and ended in the past, but you want to express the concequences of the action in the present e.g. I have purchased a gift for you (This is yours now).
- Something just happened e.g. I have spilt some milk (The puddle is still on the table).
- You want to know if something has already happened e.g. Have you finished your schoolwork yet?
- You want to express that something has not happened yet e.g. I have not done it.


I hope the sample sentences for each rule make sense.
Susanne in AZ

[Dr Grammaticus]

Dear Suzanne,

You wrote:

>> I was wondering, if these rules for the use of the **present tense** are correct:<<

In your post, you said **present tense** . I think you mean the **present perfect tense**, that understanding is reflected in my answer.

There are two participles, present participle and past participle.

The present perfect tense is formed by the present tense form of the helping verb "have" and the past participle.

F.ex. I have walked, we have eaten, he has mowed the grass, they have studied.

It denotes an action which is COMPLETED in the past, but connected with the present... the word, PERFECT, indicates something which has been completed, not an action, which continues in the past.

Action which continues in the past is reserved for the imperfect tense (imperfect denoting NOT COMPLETED action)... f.ex. I was walking, we were eating, he was mowing the grass, they were studying.

As for your examples:

>>>1. - Something started in the past, but is still continuing during the present e.g. I have been living here for 6 years (I don't plan on moving away for awhile).<<<

"have been living" is NOT present perfect tense. "living" is a present participle.

<<2. - Something just happened e.g. I have spilt some milk (The puddle is still on the table).>>


The example above does not, IMHO, indicate whether the milk is still on the table or not.... but yes, I agree, it can indicate a connection to the present, ie. an action which just happened.

>>>3>- You want to know if something has already happened e.g. Have you finished your schoolwork yet?<<<

In this case it is asking whether you have completed an action in the past, as I stated above.

>>>- You want to express that something has not happened yet e.g. I have not done it.>>

"Not" is a tricky adverb... because what you're saying really is "I have done it"... how have you done it?? **NOT* . * Not * modifies the sentence. The sentence, again, is expressing an action done in the past, connected to the present, that of "I have not done it".

Good questions and points

DG

[Susanne in AZ]

Dear Dr Grammaticus
Thanks a lot for your response. Looking at my example sentences again I realize they were probably not the best. But I checked on the application rules for the present perfect again, and those are certainly still taught in Germany. I remember the first rule really well because we were drilled in that over and over. Based on what you wrote, this rule would be wrong. Do I understand this correctly? So if I reword the example sentence for this rule to: I have lived here for 6 years, the use of the present perfect tense would still be incorrect, because I still live here (this action is not completed). Or would the use be correct, because the 6 years are completed, but I am still here?
I guess you can tell that I am rather confused now. Can you suggest a good grammar book, where this is explained in some detail, so even I can understand what is meant exactly when "an action is completed in the past, but connected with the present".
I also checked out the application of the present perfect on the following website www.hio.ft.hanze.nl/thar/grprp.htm. Their explantation sort of fits with my understanding of the topic. They say: Both the present perfect simple and the present perfect continuous forms express activities that started in the past and continue in the present.
I am starting to wonder if this is a British English grammar vs. American grammar rule.

Completely confused Susanne in AZ

[Lene Mahler Jaqua]

Thanks for writing back, Suzanne.

WE agree that present perfect tends to denote actions in the past, that have taken place very recently and have completed.

She has just left.
It has rained.

But you are right, there are instances of continuing actions in present perfect...

I have never liked that subject (I still don’t like it NOW)

I have lived in Colorado for 60 days (Yes, I still live here NOW)
I have been here since September (Yes, I am still here NOW)

I have not heard from him for years ( I am still not hearing from him NOW)


What I am seeing here is that present perfect in conjunction with an indefinite time component (like: ever, never, yet, already) or with some prepositional time phrase ( “for x amount of time”, or “since time x”) indicates an action begun in the past which is continued in the present.


Present perfect continuous is more generally used with continuous action in the past...

Present perfect continuous is constructed from

Have Been + -ing form

Present perfect simple would say:
I have written a short essay (it is completed)

Present perfect continuous would say:
I have been writing a short essay (I am still writing it.)



YES, usage in America and in other English speaking countries vary from the British usage.

In British English the present perfect is used to express an action that has occurred in the recent past that has an effect on the present moment.

In fact, present perfect tense is much more common in British than in American, where the simple past tense is usually used instead. For example, I've gone in British English; I went in American; both forms are generally accepted in standard American English (we accept just about anything here, don’t we?? (grin)). Other differences involving the use of the present perfect in British English and simple past in American English include already, just and yet.
British English:
I've just had lunch
I've already seen that film
Have you finished your homework yet?
In American English you can use either:
I just had lunch OR I've just had lunch
I've already seen that film OR I already saw that film.
Have your finished your homework yet? OR Did you finish your homework yet?
________________________________
I want to thank you for bringing this up. It helped me look into it in more detail. I don’t mean to imply that I by any means feel that we are at the bottom of this, but I do think the problems with it have been demonstrated well by you. How I wish we all spoke Latin instead. Not as many ambuguities, not as many different conventions.

Clearly this present perfect, a compound past tense, is one of the most complicated ones in terms of what it means and how it is used. It has different usages in different languages, f.ex. so far as I studied German as a kid, I understand that it is commonly used in everyday speech to refer to the past, whereas Danish, which I grew up speaking, used the simple past tense for referring to events of the past in every day speech. Latin is more precise in how it uses the present perfect than any of the above.

Lene

[Susanne in AZ]

Dear Lene,

thanks a lot for your help with this topic. What you wrote made a lot of sense. I think most of my problems were related to the British vs. American usage of the present perfect. So is it safe to say: When in doubt if you should use simple past or present perfect, just use the simple past?

I have another question for you. What resources do you use when you are not sure about the correct usage of English? I have tried my American husband (oh no, here is that present perfect again) but he just rolls his eyes when he is asked about grammar. Any good suggestions?

Thanks again,
Susanne in AZ

[Lene in CO]

Hi Susanne (and BTW I noted that I spelled your name wrong before, I apologize),

I do use Harvey as my number one reference point. Secondly I consult my Latin grammar, not that Latin is always using terms the same way as English does, but it does provide a starting point. Thirdly, I have other grammar books I look throught, AND finally I browse the Internet. When browsing the Internet I usually dig through both British and American sites, I usually try to type in historical differences (how did they use this tense in the colonial times? is it different now?), and I don't assume anything to be uniform or a generally accepted convention unless all my sites (the ones I consider well informed, usually classics sites, university grammar departments, etc) are in agreement on a topic.

But having said all that, I am not an authority, I am just learning, like you.

BTW, I am also European with an American husband... AND I used to live in Arizona

Lene

[Susanne in AZ]

Hi Lene,
thanks for your reply. I guess I will just keep on going with Harvey's and when I get completely confused I can always ask for help here.
Don't worry about misspelling my name. I am used to that. So, you have a PhD from U of A, well I have one from ASU, and I also have 3 boys (no girl). Who knows what else we have in common.

Susanne in AZ