How do I actually teach grammar with Harvey's?

[Tawney]

Hi, I have used CW-Aesop for several years on and off, and we are in Rod and Staff English for 5th grade. We have recently started CW-Homer and I am loving it. I purchased Harvey's and have started doing the lessons from the Harevey's summer course on my own. My nuts and bolts question is how do you cover the specific material that is listed as a prerequisite for the analysis portion of Homer? Are you spending a certain amount of time per day, or covering it all in one sitting, etc...? Do you present one concept a day, put it in the copybook, review copybook and then practice on models each day? I guess I am so used to the graded "130 lessons and 10 tests" format that I don't have a good grasp of how to do this open ended format in real life. I need a plan. We are enjoying Rod and Staff for the most part, but it does get repetitious at times. I like the direction CW Homer is going and would like to cut as much fluff out of our curriculum as possible so that we can concentrate on the meat of analysis and immitation. Could you please give me some guidance on how to do this with a strong 5th grader, what would we try to cover, etc... Thanks,

Tawney

[Tracy Gustilo]

Hi Tawney,

Glad to hear you are liking CW-Homer. As for Harvey's, any of the above would work fine. Lene has a fairly well worked out system for how she teaches Harvey's. I'm sure she'll post about that. I tend to be pretty laid back myself. I just pick up the book and go. :-) I go as far in a day/session as I can before my or my kids' eyes glaze over! Generally we do not do Harvey's every single day, more like three times per week, or as needed to get through the material we need for CW. I tend not to give too many exercises from Harvey's, and I'm more likely to do them orally in class just to see that they've got the hang of the concepts. (I'll assign more in writing if the kids are squirrelly or aren't getting it.) With all the practice we get in CW, I don't want to burden them with too many "canned" exercises. I do tend, however, to try to pick the "good ones" from Harvey's. Harvey's does include a fair number of sentences from favorite authors or poets. These can be trickier, so we also usually do at least a handful of easy "canned" ones as well.

I do make sure *I've* got the concepts down (or reviewed) before we do CW application, however. I find the CW analysis goes a lot better when things are fresh in *my* mind!

HTH,
Tracy

[Lisa]

Tracy said:

Lene has a fairly well worked out system for how she teaches Harvey's. I'm sure she'll post about that.

HTH,
Tracy

I have been checking back here to see if Lene would post her system. I am curious of this plan as well.

Thanks.
Lisa

[Lene Mahler Jaqua]

Tawney,

This is a good question. In fact, many steer away from Harvey's because they cannot see their way through teaching it.

Now, Harvey's is divided into about 134 sections, each numbered sequentially. I teach it over 2 years, covering part 1 the first year, and covering part 2 the second year.

As for a specific lesson, it's wise to be a little ahead of CW Homer. Doing the sections concurrently with CW Homer is fine, of course, but I find that if I have already covered it, CW Homer serves as review and application both.

Every grammar day (which is twice a week T and TH) we start by reviewing the grammar copybook (more on this below) before we do the lesson. It is, IMHO, crucial that they have the grammar vocabulary memorized and understand its meaning and usage. (I do the same thing in Algebra... copybook for memorization of concepts).

Generally I teach one or two numbered sections per day. If some of the sections are small and with few concepts of any consequence, I lump them together. For bigger sections, like section 20 The adjective, Oral Lesson, I do just that one lesson. On the other hand, if they struggle with a concept upon review the next day, I go back and redo that session again. We don't move on until there is a reasonable degree of mastery of each concept.

I present all the material in the book on a white board with my student(s). I pretty much throw the discussion from Harvey's up on the board the way he presents the lesson... though I NEVER read the book aloud like a movie script, I try to make it natural and make it MY talking to them. Once I have given my little spiel, it's a discussion session where the student(s) may ask or guess or participate by writing part of it on the board. Whatever comes to my own mind in terms of what we're learning elsewhere, IF it fits, I bring it in... like special sentences I remember from our Bible reading or something . We bat the concepts back and forth till I get a sense that they "get it".

Anything in bold letters goes in the student(s)' grammar copybook. We try to do much of the oral work on the white board. (My kids LOVE the white board and will do any written work on the white board rather than on paper, so I have two white boards for two students and have a semi-oral discussion session with both of them at the boards at the same time).

We always do the exercises, either orally or written on the boards or on paper. I SKIP things which are totally self evident to my kids.... f.ex. they never need to review the correct usage passages.... things like "he were" or "we was" is not something they ever err in, so we don't even bother.

My students swap boards or papers and grade each other's work, and then if they have a dispute, I settle the issue as best I can. The times when they don't agree are actually the best!! It's when the most learning takes place. I have one student who is plenty bright, but who tends to take things said in a strange awkward way that often means that she ended up understanding something different from what I meant. Once I understand where she is coming from, I get an enlightenment into the workings of her special mind AND I get a chance to present the concept differently.

In addition I do diagramming with them. Whatever sentences Harvey has them copy into their books or onto boards, we diagram also (up to the point we're at in diagramming, and "black-boxing" anything that is beyond them ((or BEYOND me)) right now!). If I have taught verbs and subjects and direct objects in Harvey, I make sure to cover that ground concurrently in diagramming. So in general, we do the Harvey lesson on Tuesday, and cover the diagraming aspect of it on Thursdays. Diagramming is usually doubled with dictation. First I dictate the sentences and they write them down, leaving about 5 lines between each sentence. THEN they diagram on their own. If I am in a hurry I have them diagram togeher on the white board with a list of sentences on their own. (I use Mary Daly for diagramming).

When I am in a hurry to get to other students I tend to give a quick lesson and have them do the written lesson on paper.... Yes, I am very pragmatic on this because I have 4 students that all need getting to. Thankfully that isn't too often, so most of our work is whiteboard work, whcih of course means I don't have a nice long paper trail if I should be "audited" by our state, but so be it

HTH, if not, please ask more... I love teaching Harvey's

Lene

[Molly in UT]

I'm more laid back with my Harvey's grammar teaching. I assign about one lesson a week to my 10 yo son (5th grade). Then he's responsible for reading it, copying all the definitions and doing the exercises at some point before Thursday. On Thursday, I review the lesson with him, asking the review questions, quizzing him on his past definitions, checking his work, and doing some of the exercises orally. So far this has worked out fine because he understands it just fine on his own. However, I may have to add in a Monday lesson when it starts getting harder for him. Basically I'd go over the material with him before he starts, then he'd have the next few days to finish the lesson as before. Thursday would still be review day.

I'm basically following the suggestions of what lessons go along with Homer on page 78 of Homer.

Also, another thing I noticed is that grammar concepts are often introduced in Homer before you get to them in Harvey's. That's actually good because when we get a "new" concept in Harvey's, we've already started learning it in Homer. So my son is able to do the Harvey's more easily because he's already had the oral lesson from Mom.

What I like about Harvey's is that it's not drill and kill. Sure, there are some exercises, but not a ton like other grammar programs we've done. A lot of the exercises incorporate "real" writing. And best of all, Homer does a great job giving relevance to it all!

Molly

[Kim T]

Hi Lene,

I was reading your post on this thread about how you teach Harvey two days each week, on Tuesday and Thursday. I have two dc, 3rd and 1st, and we are currently doing Aesop. I love reading through Homer and look forward to beginning that in the fall.

I have been trying to figure out our schedule, specifically, how I can fit in English grammar, Latin, and continue the steady pace of Greek that we've learned. I've been thinking about your post, and like the idea of designating two days for English grammar. I'm wondering, though, what the rest of your schedule looks like. Do you teach Latin or other languages? If so, do you teach them everyday? I know from reading your posts that you spend a lot of time on CW so I'm curious as to the amount of time you allot for other subjects, particularly languages.

I literally feast on the messages on this board and thank you and Tracy so much for your wisdom.

Kim T.

[Lene Mahler Jaqua]

My schedule Ahhh... well, it has evolved over the past 10 years of homeschooling, a little tweak here and a squeeze there.

I did, back in 1998, purchase Managers of Their Homes, which helped me write down all my goals and juggle the schedule around till I had all my goals down in a time slot complete with times and spots and activities for toddlers, etc. That is much more rigid and structured than I really want to be, but even for a mom, who believes in flexibility, I think it is a good place to start because it helps you realistically COUNT your hours in the day, note your goals (how many hours) and then scale back to the 24 hours God has allotted all of us in a day.

At this point I do the following.... (the times are rough and approximate)

1. we school year round with large breaks for things like Christmas, Holy Week, major illnesses (I have a chronically ill child so this is not a minor time issue), and other vacations when we want them.

2. Jan - March we do Danish, Bible, art, science and poetry, math and Latin

3. the rest of the year we do Danish, LA (all the trivium arts), history, literature, Latin, Greek.. .and I hope I didn't forget something

4. PE and music are part of our life on weekends and related to church choir and youth group, or just to hikes and stuff we do as a family


Usually my days are like this

1. our family meets for prayer 7 am
2. breakfast after prayers 7:10
3. chores after breakfast 7:30 or so
4. Bible reading and prayer before school ( starts no later than 8:30)
5. after prayers we do Danish and art (or history)
6. 9:30 we start individual subjects

My two middle students will start on their own because I always do a Latin/math session with them last thing the school day before.

I spend at least an hour with my oldest teaching and discussing math and Latin. Then he does 1 hour of each on his own.

When I am done with him, I am able to help my two middle students where they got stuck or read with my child with special needs, work on on-line stuff (a class I co-teach, or write my books, or answer email)

7. lunch at noon
8. family read aloud 30 mins after lunch
9. lunch chores (I don't do these, I work on school prep or I take 1 hour to regroup alone... nap, walk, prayer, whatever!!)
11. 1 or 1:30 pm I get oldest going in LA (logic or rhetoric) and philosophy and history OR ( science /art) whatever he is doing... it takes 30 + minutes... and he is set for the afternoon (every other afternoon this takes a lot of time and the follow afternoon, almost none at all, so I alternate)
12. I get my middle students going in LA and history or sicence and art ... every other day this is a long session.. and then they are set till the end of the afternoon where I do a math and Latin session with them for the next day
13. BY 3 pm I work with my special needs child in math andn LA
14. AT 4 pm I work with my middle students in math - Latin for the next day


2 caveats....

1. this concept of having a large session with a student and covering several subjects Latin and math at once is something my odlest didn't develop into till 2 years ago. It's an older student trait to manage several subjects at once -- not recommended with little ones... only assign math and have them come back for feedback as soon as they are done. -- I think older students are so much easier to work with, more responsible and so my load is easier now because I can plan and lump things, whereas when they were little I was ON- CALL instantly when there was a math-melt down


You asked about the time I spend on languages. We teach Danish every morning for 30 minutes because it is my native language. We do read alouds, discuss the books and on Fridays we do dictation.

Latin we do 1 1/2 per day with the 9th grader and with the 4th and 6th grader I do 30 minutes with them and they do about 30 minutes on their own in drill and exercises. (Latin is best taught in a class IMHO).

My 4th grader needed and extra challenge so he does Greek with me. It's just 30 mins. per day for now.

Language arts is divided into different days as I showed in Harvey SS. I do grammar twice a week, spelling and vocabulary once a week and now, Logic twice a week.

Finally, I built into my school week that Friday is catch up day. Friday is the day I give Latin Quizzes, it's the day where any essay is completed even if it was interrupted during the week and we had a Thursday afternoon off and things just weren' rolling this day. That is built into Friday. it helps me never be "behind". Friday is the day when they must clean their desks, file all lose papers, keep track of the hours and grades for the week and turn them in to me. It's also the day we go to the library, AND it is the day where I usually take the afternoon and work on my own on planning, or on something I WANT to do, or on my on-line email exchanges that have fallen behind. My oldest, who is very conscientious and motivated, is usually not behind, so he plugs on Fridays like any other day, ONLY he knows that I am less available for comment and so he has to work on his own more.

Let me know if this gave you a slight idea of how I operate... It's structure with flexibility (fe.x yesterday we were gone all day on a field trip visiting a monastery and then on to the Colorado history museum)--- I love it, when it works, which is most days.



Lene

[Kim T]

Thank you so much, Lene, for taking the time to write a lengthy reply. I kept it on my screen for quite a while just to digest it. It is very helpful to be able to peer into someone else's life and see how things are done.

If I may, I'd like to ask a couple of follow-up questions. I didn't understand what you meant by "Latin is best taught in a class." Could you explain? Also, I wondered what Latin and Greek curriculum you are using and how they have worked for you.

You are quite a role model for implementing excellence in education at home. I am very thankful for your example.

Kim T.

[Lene Mahler Jaqua]

You are WAY too generous. Role model, certainly not. You should SEE my house today ...LOLOL!!

I should be doing a few things to pick up stray laundry, CD's, mop my kitchen floor and I have totally neglected one student today that I never got to becasue everything else came crashing down my head once we started school this morning.

But apart from that... I will let you know my thoughts on Latin. I have one student who is 15 in 4 weeks, he is 3 years older than my next child and he has always worked alone and with me on everything. Much of what I have done in teaching him, I have done simply by throwing stuff at him with a short song and dance, and then letting him ask me when he was lost. - He is a good student and he has done fairly well. I don't have huge regrets about how he is turning out academically, though there are MANY things I would do differently with him if I had a time machine.

My next two students are 18 months apart. They vary completely in where their strengths are. One is great in written expression, literature, poetry, and art, the other is strong in math, science, geography, and the hard and fast mechanical rules of language. I have always taught those two together in almost every subject. They have learned Latin and math in a 2 student class setting. I have been much more involved in their schooling by white board teaching and discussion, and I find them to have fewer lapses and gaps than my oldest.

With my oldest ever so often things have come crashing back at me.... like "oh my word...a fter all this time you have not sufficiently drilled the Latin subjunctive endings... we simply have to go back and do this section over". The reason being that he runs on his own and I spot check and things are not always understood by him. -- With my middle two, because I have a more active hand, because they do their drill orally together, and because they have each other and grade each others' work, we never get that sort of crash in learning... we plod away... slower... but when it's learned, because they have a learning buddy, it's really learned.

In Latin I use Henle and for the student who does Greek, he does a modified (slowed down) version of Grecham Machen's New Testament Greek that a friend is generously sharing with me. I study along with him by doing Machen myself. -- Henle is a little "dull", perhaps, but it's very thorough and it has a limited vocabulary. I am going to keep my oldest in it to finsh... he is in Henle 2, but I am not sure about my middle two. They want to do Missal Latin, which is a course which is strictly Church Latin... no Caesar... and I am trying to make decisions for next year. My preference would be Wheelock, but my kids want Church Latin, not classical Latin.

HTH, Lene

[Kim T]

Wow. Forgive me, Lene, for turning this into a Latin board, but you've amazed me yet again. Are you saying that your 4th and 6th graders are both in Henle 1? Did they do another Latin program prior to Henle? It seems the popular track these days is Latin Christiana I, then II, THEN Henle, for those who progress into Henle. If they, the 4th grader in particular because I have an up-and-coming 4th grader, didn't do another program prior to Henle, how was it for them to jump right in there?

Kim T.

[Lene Mahler Jaqua]

My 4th grader did LC I and II. He is my most precocious student. He is also the one doing Greek... just to keep him busy and challenged enough. Normally students can start Henle around 6th or so. They are not far in Henle 1, perhaps Ex 50 or so.

Lene.