Should we include [ its ] as a Possessive Pronoun?

[Kathie in VA]

Havey's doesn't include the word - its - as a Possessive Pronoun, yet I think I saw it in one of the CW answer key for part 1. When I look it up online at
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_personal_pronouns#His_and_its

it says, "His and its Historically, his was the possessive of it as well of he; nowadays it has been completely supplanted by its. "

??
tia

[Carolyn]

There are two things here.

The first is the pronoun it, used in the possessive case. "The horse found its way home" This is not a possessive pronoun, but a personal pronoun, possessive case. "Its'" is definitely one of these.

For a possessive pronoun, the pronoun itself is standing in for the noun, as in "These books are mine." If a saddle belonged to a particular horse, one would not say "The saddle is its." And so, Harvey doesn't include "its" as a possessive pronoun.

But, "its" is a personal pronoun in the possessive case.

If this explanation isn't helpful, keep asking question.

Carolyn

[Kathie in VA]

Well that helps, I'm not sure I'm there yet though.

Harvey's defines a Possessive Pronoun as: a word used to represent both the possessor and the thing possessed.

I think in your first example, [ its ] is not a possessive pronoun because it doesn't represent two things, only the personal noun. Okay, I think I get that part.

The lesson in Harvey's says to ask 'what [the pronoun in question] represents' which is then always answered by a possessive adjective (my, your, his, hers, its, our, your, their) and the noun referred to. So
That box is yours.
Is a good example because yours can be replaced by your book.

I see that your second example at least sounds strange.
The saddle is its.
We wouldn't replace its with its horse... that wouldn't work.


What about:
"The car's lights won't turn off!" said the boy.
"What son? What about the car? I didn't hear you," asked Mom.
"[glow=red,2,300]Its[/glow] lights won't turn off," repeated the boy.

Or is this not an appropriate example? Is this not a possessive pronoun but an possessive adjective?

ug. This all started because we are memorizing the lists of pronouns in groups. This weeks group is the Possessive Pronoun which included the word [ its ] but we've been told to scratch that off because it doesn't belong there. I just wanted to check the list but now I'm going off and really trying to understand it on the fly. If I explain this to my hubby he's really going to think I'm turning into a strange bird!

Thanks for all your help.

[Kathie in VA]

Me again.
Just to add to the confusion , I just checked with another text I have here. Rod and Staff Eng 5, teachers ed, says that, "Some possessive pronouns are used as adjectives. Others are used only as pronouns. When possessive pronouns modify nouns, they are used as adjectivies. Otherwise (when the stand alone) they are used as pronouns. Notice that his and its may be used as pronouns and as adjectives."

Looks like here they just combined the 'possessive pronoun' and the 'personal pronoun used in the possessive case' into one definition called a 'possessive pronoun'. yes? Any idea why? Has the definitions changed over time or is this just a simplified definition that they may have chosen to give a 5th grader?

[Carolyn]

This is where grammar gets sticky. Between terminology and what is 'acceptable usage', all sorts of sticky wickets can be introduced into what we usually think of as a subject as simple as arithmetic.

It isn't.

Some texts consider personal pronouns in the possessive case to be adjectives. Harveys considers them to be pronouns with an adjectival role.

If you've got the distinction that possessive pronouns represents both the possessor and the thing possessed, while the personal pronoun (or adjective, in some texts) only represents the possessor, that's sufficient.

I'm not sure why R&S uses the terminology that they do. It would be lovely if all grammars used standard terminology ... but they don't.

So .. the bottom line is that some sources say 'its' is not a possessive pronoun, other sources say it is. I've not heard it used as a possessive pronoun before, but given the direction the English language is going, I can see it becoming such in descriptive grammars.

I'm sure this is muddying the waters ... and it's making me want to investigate historical grammar. But hopefully, it will clarify what kinds of mud are in the waters, and why each kind is there?

Carolyn

[Lene Mahler Jaqua]

Kathie,

Good questions.

You had it right the first time. A possessive pronoun indicates both the possession and it also stands in for the noun it represents.... ONE WORD.

So your example

"What about the car, son?"
"Its lights will not turn on."

does not feature 'its' as a possessive pronoun because 'its lights' is a two word phrase including light as the noun and 'its' as a possessive adjective.

Carolyn is right. "The saddle is its" simply isn't proper English. We don't say that (well, some might, but it isn't accepted proper construction), and that is why Harvey does not include it.

OK, now, what Rod and Staff means when they say that some possessive pronouns are used as possessive adjectives is not that the word 'his' somehow fills the same role at the same time, but merely that the form of the pronoun 'he' that is known as 'his' may, depending on the context in the sentence serve in two different roles 1. as a possessive pronoun, as in "The book is his" or 2. as a possessive adjective as in "This is his book." They are two different and separate grammatical constructs which just happen to be expressed in English with the same spelling both times. This would not be the case with 'mine' and 'my'.

Now, I agree totally with Carolyn that some grammars throw posessive pronouns and possessive adjectives together totally in a parsing chart and leave the 'genitive' or 'possessive' case box with

my, mine... you, yours,... her, hers... his, his... its, its...

but it is not a very precise way to do it.

A pronoun stands in for a noun and has all the properties of a noun. A possessive adjective IS and adjective and has only the function of modification.

We like to make that distinction.

I would bet that it is the grammars that lump those two together, who also have 'its' as a possessive pronoun. Any grammar that distinguises possessives into nouns and adjectives would have to leave 'its' out of the possessive nouns, as did Harvey.

Lene

[Kathie in VA]

Thanks Lene and Carolyn, this helps. I think I got it ... at least enough for now!

Till next time...