Combining CW with Literature and History

[Donelda]

My dd is only in Homer A right now, but I am trying to make an outline for our curriculum in future years. These are some of the questions that I've been wrestling with.

Can you tell me more about how you are incorporating literature into the upper levels of CW? Do you have a literature list for each level? Will I need to incorporate other literature analysis to make a full course?

Are you still following a chronological history with the books? Will I be able to tie CW in with our history studies?

I'm considering using Veritas Press' Omnibus or Bauer's Well Educated Mind. Would these be good complements to CW or overkill?

My dd is 4th-grade-age and is doing well in Homer A right now. Should I consider slowing our pace through Homer so that she starts Diogenes when she is 7th-grade-age? If I don't slow her down (and she doesn't graduate early) what would we do for writing in her final year?

[Lene Mahler Jaqua]

Donelda,
We have assigned reading as well as recommended literature lists for the upper grades.

Here is a link to a recent post on reading recommendations. We are working on a web page on our main pages to include all literature recommendations through 12th grade.

lene.proboards15.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=general&thread=1347&page=1

You should choose whatever favorite Great Books reading program you want to follow in addition to this. Most of what we read and write about would be in line with any of those courses.

If your daughter is doing well in Homer A in 4th grade, I see no reason to slow her down. (That is one of the beauties of being homeschooled). In high school we feature

Herodotus - 9th grade, 2 semesters
Plutarch - 10th grade, 2 semesters
Demosthenes Thesis - 11th grade 1 semester
Demosthenes Law - 12th grade 1 semester

And in addition we feature Advanced Poetry and also Classical Writing Shakespeare at one semester each so there are choices in high school. For example, your student may want to round out her 12th grade with an emphasis on mythology or science fiction or British theater or theology or philosophy. My plan is to include in CW Shakespeare (our literature course) an appendix with a blueprint for advanced students for how to create your own literature and writing course in whatever literature subject the student is interested in. That would allow your advanced student some choices in her last year while continuing her work in writing.

Also, when the series is completed for the 14 progymnasmata (with Demosthenes - Law) I hope to write a book on Ancient Greek Declamation to complete the rhetorical education. That will also be for advanced students.

Does that answer your questions?

Lene

[Donelda]

Thank you! This was very helpful! The reading list is exactly what I was looking for. It looks like you use books from different time periods, so there isn't really a connection between history studies and writing/literature. I'm assuming that if I want that connection, I could use the optional reading from the time period that we are studying.

For the required reading beginning in Diogenes, do you spend several weeks studying each book? Are all of the writing exercises related to that book? Is each semester considered to be one literature/writing credit or could it be expanded to be one writing and one literature credit?

I'm really excited about the future advanced options! That sounds perfect.

[Lene Mahler Jaqua]

>>Thank you! This was very helpful! The reading list is exactly what I was looking for. It looks like you use books from different time periods, so there isn't really a connection between history studies and writing/literature. I'm assuming that if I want that connection, I could use the optional reading from the time period that we are studying.

For the required reading beginning in Diogenes, do you spend several weeks studying each book? Are all of the writing exercises related to that book? Is each semester considered to be one literature/writing credit or could it be expanded to be one writing and one literature credit?>>

We do use books from different time periods because it is impossible to 'hit' everyone's history period at the same time.

For the assigned reading books we do schedule several weeks to read them. We use models from those books in our analysis and imitation lessons, and we also try to generate essay prompts from some of those readings.

If you need to read different books, it is possible to do so and still survive our writing curriculum. We tried not to be too rigid, but clearly you will get the most of of the program if you also read the selections we choose.

As far as credit, it depends on how much of the work you do in the course. If you both read and discuss and do all the writing. It is possible in a semester to get credit for both literature and writing.

[Lisa Kelly]

I printed the literature list and followed the links for some of the books and noticed that many of the ones I have are by different translators. Some of these books are new! For example, I have Iliad translated by Latimore. Please tell me that this will work out okay. Will this work? I will be sure to buy the translation recommended from now on.

Thank you so much for the list as it will be very helpful!

Thank you,
Lisa Kelly

[Lene Mahler Jaqua]

Whoops!! Thanks for asking.

I had meant to correct the recommendation to include Lattimore's translation.

I am a huge fan of Fagles, which I have read aloud almost everything Fagles has translated to my kids (Odyssey, Iliad, Aeneid, and tragedies of Sophocles)... but Kathy prefers Lattimore and asked me to include Lattimore which is the 'old standard' and readily available used and in many more formats.

The fact is that any recommendation we make is optional. If you already have a book in a certain translation and that translation works for you, by all means, don't go out and spend unless you have a good reason to do so.

I just lead a group of ladies through a study of Plato's Dialogues. We were very frugal and each of us used the versions we already owned, and I think while it was sometimes hard to know 'where we were as a team' since we didn't have the same page numbers, we learned much about subtleties in translation by having everyone with a different translation.

When I read Dante for the first time in translation, years ago, the translation I had sounded a lot like the King James Bible-sort of language. At the time that was very difficult for me and I had a friend recommend that I try Ciardi's translation instead. It helped.

Where we have expressed preferences in the reading list, it's because we owned a translation we loved, like my two-set Odyssey and Iliad by Fagles (where I loved the foot notes and also the tone of the language). Most of the time our recommendations also carry a concern for budget. Buying Great Books adds up quickly, and much of my library is acquired used or at library book sales.

Translation is often, however, an issue for kids, but when read aloud by someone who is able to read well, the kids will not struggle, not even with King James'ian language. Whenever I don't have a recommendation for translation from anyone, I check Amazon's listmania for classical works as well as the comments from those who own the book, or google "best translation for ____" and I usually find classicists here or there with posts for why, f. ex. to buy Alan Bloom's translation of the Republic. Also

Sorry, that was a long song and dance about translations,

Lene

[Lisa Kelly]

Thank you Lene!

We are planning to use Classical Writing all the way through. We are just starting Homer and are very excited. Thanks to all of you ladies!!