Homer OB Week 19, Day 2

[hiddenjewel]

They were the sons of one of those Titans who had fought against Jupiter and been sent in chains to the strong prison-house of the Lower World.

"of those Titan" - The answer key says this prepositional phrase is adjectival modifying one. Since "of one" is an adjectival phrase modifying "sons", does that not make "of the Titans" adverbial? Or does it stay adjectival since "one" is a noun no matter its use?

[Carolyn]

Sorry we didn't answer this post sooner ... it slipped through somehow!

It's adjectival, since it answers the adjective question 'what kind'. Adjectives can modify other adjectives as well. To be an adverbial phrase, it would need to answer an adverb question - how, where, when, etc.

Carolyn

[hiddenjewel]

Okay. Thanks. I had learned that an adjective that modified another adjective was considered an adverb.

[Carolyn]

Do you remember where you heard that? I'd think an adjective would always be an adjective, unless it's one of those pesky words that can be several different parts of speech and it happens to be functioning as one of the others at the time.

Carolyn

[Kathie in VA]

I've though that an adverb modifies a verb, adjective or another adverb. So if 'of the Titans' is modifying something that is acting as an adjective then wouldn't it be adverbial? (unless it is really directly modifying 'sons', a noun, in that case it would be adjectival?)

[hiddenjewel]

I've though that an adverb modifies a verb, adjective or another adverb.
----------------------------------------------------
This is what the grammar programs I have taught the girls have said. I'll try find which programs.

[Carolyn]

That's perfectly correct. Adverbs do modify adjectives. Adjectives can modify adjectives, too. The role in the sentence isn't a defining factor in deciding what part of speech something is.

Consider:
Horses are animals.
Horses are fast.

'Animals' and 'fast' stand in the same place in the sentence, and are both connected to a noun by a linking verb. One of them is a noun (animals) and the other is an adjective (fast). The questions 'Is this a person, place, or thing?' or 'Does this tell how many, which one, what kind, or whose' need to be used.

Words modifying adjectives can be adjectives or adverbs. Examples fail me now, except for that of a 'light blue car' in which light is telling us what kind of blue it is, not that the car didn't weigh much. For 'a very fast car', very tells us 'how' fast the car is, and so it is an adverb.

Carolyn

[Lene Mahler Jaqua]

I just returned from vacation or I might have jumped into this discussion sooner. Carolyn just flagged it for me today.


>>>They were the sons of one of those Titans who had fought against Jupiter and been sent in chains to the strong prison-house of the Lower World.

"of those Titan" - The answer key says this prepositional phrase is adjectival modifying one. Since "of one" is an adjectival phrase modifying "sons", does that not make "of the Titans" adverbial? Or does it stay adjectival since "one" is a noun no matter its use?>>>


The phrase "of those Titans" does modify
"one", yes. And "of one" does modify "sons".


Both adjectives and adverbs modify.

Adjectives modify nouns or noun phrases or clauses.
Adjectives answer the questions: which one, what kind, or how many. That is, they deal with demonstration (which one... THIS ONE), quality (the RED one) or quantity (ONE parrot).

Adverbs modify verbs, adjectives, and other adverbs. Adverbs answer: how, where, when, why questions.

Adjectives CANNOT modify other adjectives, but modern English is sloppy and we have lost our precision in hyphenating correctly in order to indicate where an adjective is doing its modification.

For example in Carolyn's "light blue car" example, either

1. it is a LIGHT blue car ... as in the car is light (as opposed to heavy)

or if it is the 'blue' that is of a light color, the expression has to be written like this

2. a light-blue car ... this to indicate that 'light-blue' is a compound adjective, the whole of which modifies the word car.

>>>>
Posted by Kathie in VA on Today at 9:13am
I've though that an adverb modifies a verb, adjective or another adverb. So if 'of the Titans' is modifying something that is acting as an adjective then wouldn't it be adverbial? (unless it is really directly modifying 'sons', a noun, in that case it would be adjectival?)>>>>


What we have in the case of "of the Titans" and "of one" are NOUN phrases that modify adjectivally. So noun phrases that ACT LIKE adjectives, but they are not 'adjectives', they remain phrases, and phrases consist of a noun, possibly a modifier to that noun, which are prefaced by a preposition. In this case

of (preposition) the (article adjective) Titans (noun).


This is a NOUN phrase. It modifies "one".

You see, in English, it is possible for nouns to modify other nouns.
prepositional phrases (AKA noun phrases) often modify nouns "a son of one of the Titans" or "my cat without the tail" or "the swallow on the roof".

Carolyn brought up this example.

Consider:
1. Horses are animals.
2. Horses are fast.


In this case

1. horse = animal

this is a direct identification, you could draw a venn diagram a circle of all animals, and have a smaller circle within which contains horses.

In this case

2. horse = fast

we have (I am sorry to say it Carolyn, you don't like it when I bring these up) ELLIPSIS. that is Horses do not EQUAL fast. It's our language that is abbreviating. "Horses are fast anmials" would be correct, and you could do a Venn diagram of all animals, have a sub circle within for fast animals and within that \circle, again, you could have a circle of horses. Now you have a direct identification and you have not equated a noun with an adjective.

Whenever a noun is equated with an adjective, you have an ellipsis. Something has been omitted in colloquial speech because we don't speak in logically correct terms. It would be too tedious.

I have over-waxed on this subject, and not eloquently, I might add, but so it is, or so I think it is.
Lene

[Carolyn]

Lene's right... I don't like ellipsis. (Except as punctuation, and then I overuse them.)

My new knowledge for the day: Adjectives don't modify other adjectives.

Carolyn